00:06
Brad Sousa
Hey, everybody. Brad Sousa here, CTO at AVI Systems. And have I got a question for you that I never imagined I would ever ask: How do you lead tech for a company started by one of our country's founding fathers? Like a Revolutionary War hero. Like Paul Revere. Well, today on Eyes On Impact, we have Chuck Scharnagle, CIO of Revere Copper, the first manufacturing company of any kind in our country. Now, Chuck has got a really diverse background in IT leadership, from manufacturing to software to tribal government. And the melding of his experiences has created a super-interesting perspective on tech and leadership. So, in this episode, we'll unpack how you lead innovation in a company that's more than 200 years old and lead it in a way that moves forward the business of that company, while at the same time honors the tradition and history that's made that company great.
01:07
Brad Sousa
We'll talk about why our industry teaches emerging tech leaders to say “no,” like, to everything. That's the first answer. And then, as a result, we all wrestle with the IT neglect that's sure to follow. And we'll talk about why IQ isn't the main thing that makes an IT leader amazing. Sure, it's important we value IQ and the skill set that comes with it. But today's tech leaders also need a high dose of EQ and AQ to really lead a team of engineers and creative problem solvers. But before we unbox all of this, I want to take a moment and say thank you to our friends at Logitech, who have sponsored Eyes On Impact and as a result, given all of us new tools that we can use to be the kind of problem-solver that we want to be. So, what do you say? You ready for all of this? Well, I am, so let's get after it.
01:59
Brad Sousa
Well, Chuck, it is an honor to have you here with us on Eyes On Impact. As we've prepped as I've prepped for this call today, there have been several things that I think I've learned about you, and I'm just excited about having a conversation around your leadership style, how you see IT moving forward, your company, all the kind of great things. Before we get started in the tech conversation and the leadership conversation, how about we just spend a few minutes and get to know, Chuck Scharnagle. So how did you get involved in the industry? What drew you into this crazy world of tech? And how did that all start for you?
02:50
Chuck Sharnagle
Well, first of all, Brad, thanks so much for having me on. I certainly appreciate it. You know, it's funny, looking back, I really didn't think I was going into it back in high school, that wasn't the original plan. I was big at, played a few sports. I loved drama. When I got into college, I actually took a drama class. They wanted me to continue, and then I kind of waited and said, gee, do I want to eat? Yeah, I do, so I better have a real occupation. And got into IT. IT was a hot thing back in the 80s. It was kind of hitting and I liked the dynamics of computers and I thought, hey, this is something that's going to be around for a while, so I can always find a job, and got into it, liked it. But to be honest with you, I like the business side of it even more, and it allows me to understand what's going on in a business while impacting a particular vertical piece of that business.
03:50
Brad Sousa
So I think part of the message I heard was I like drama, so I got into IT. Is that part of the message I think I heard?
03:58
Chuck Sharnagle
Yeah, that and management, right? Part of being a manager is definitely understanding the drama that goes on.
04:05
Brad Sousa
Yeah, for sure. Now, you've had a really fascinating journey. I mean, you've been in software development, you've been in manufacturing, you've been in tribal government. How did those experiences shape your view on what IT leadership looks like?
04:21
Chuck Sharnagle
You know the nice thing about the background that I have is I've touched a lot of different areas, so I like to think that I've got experiences in many different places so that I haven't always learned how to do one thing. I've gotten a lot of input from a lot of really great people. Part way through my journey, I happened to work for a couple of guys at Black & Decker and fantastic leaders. I really learned some basics and I followed them from Black & Decker to Fruit of the Loom, and then I followed one of them on to EMC. So through those three periods of my life, I had some people kind of watching me and helping me grow, and I learned some valuable lessons during that time period.
05:09
Brad Sousa
So you've had some good mentors, it sounds like that helped shape some of your thinking. Give me an idea of an “a-ha” moment as a young aspiring It leader that began to kind of shaped who you are today.
05:24
Chuck Sharnagle
Well, when I was at Black & Decker, one of the things that kind of hit me was we had a logo that was one of the most popular logos in the world at the time. And this was back in the 90s. And it wasn't a huge company. It was a multibillion dollar enterprise, but it was fairly small as far as the Fortune 500. And my manager looked at me one day and he said, we're a manufacturing company. We do two things. We have to make sure two things occur. We have to ship product and we have to pay people. So all the other things that go into it, those two things have to happen for us to survive. And he brought that up as a point because we were looking at some systems and it was, okay, Chuck, how many drills do we have to sell to pay for that?
06:14
Chuck Sharnagle
Is that going to happen? And at that point in my career, I'd never thought about, what does it really take? It was, oh, well, we need three more servers and we need so many more PCs, or we need to buy this package, so we just need to do it. But by putting in that context, it was, okay, we sell drills for $92, and we're looking for something that's going to cost $76,000. Are we really going to help the business grow that much to offset it? Is it really worth it to me? And since then, I carry that with me wherever I go. And I've shared that with my team at Revere the same thing. Look, bright shiny objects are all well and good, but are they going to move the needle enough to pay for themselves and provide the value? And if it doesn't, then we shouldn't be looking at that new bright, shiny object.
07:06
Brad Sousa
Yeah, that's a great story. I had a meeting not so long ago with a customer it was a healthcare provider, and one of the questions that they asked me, we're looking at an initiative around patient edutainment, you know, teaching patients how to care for themselves before they're discharged, things like that. And his question to me was, Brad, help me rationalize why spending the money here rather than buying a new MRI or buying a new surgical suite or whatever it is, help me understand what the impact is to our patients as opposed to taking money away from direct care for a child in a NICU as an example. And so I love that mindset. That's really great.
07:53
Chuck Sharnagle
Well, and that's the thing that people don't sit back often enough. We get too focused on our department and our things versus looking at what the business is. One of the things that I don't like is people will always say, oh, you need to make sure IT is aligned with the business. Well, I have a couple of problems with that. First of all, of course IT should be aligned with the business. There's no two ways about that. Why do we pick on it and say, well, you should be aligned with the business? Not only should it be aligned with the business, but the legal department should be aligned with the business. Finance should be aligned. HR. Everybody needs to be aligned with the business. It's important that all of us are in the same boat and we're rowing in the same direction. It's not just IT that gets in their own boat and rows away.
08:42
Chuck Sharnagle
Other departments do that as well. And it behooves all of us to understand why are we here? We're here to improve shareholder value. There's no doubt about that. But how are we doing it, and are we doing it the right way?
08:58
Brad Sousa
Well, you talk about shareholder value. I know that Revere Copper is an ESOP. It's employee owned. We (AVI Systems) are, too. That creates an amazing culture around how people align and support one another. Let's talk about Revere Copper for a moment. I'd like to learn a little bit more about that. Your company has got a really interesting history and story to it. Am I right that Revere is not just a namesake, but it's actually tied back to the founding fathers?
09:31
Chuck Sharnagle
It’s unbelievable. Not only are we named after Paul Revere, but we are the oldest manufacturing company in the history of the United States. It's a great story. Apparently, Paul Revere went and requested a loan to start this company and he wanted to create copper to put around our naval fleet because the British had copper on their fleet, which helped protect the boats. So he wanted to do the same thing. So that's where it all started. We actually have a letter from Paul Revere. A great history, a lot of pride in it. Apparently, they had the Revere family in a few years back to celebrate one of the anniversaries. So it was great. And it is great when you work at a place like a Black & Decker and a Fruit of the Loom, there's history there, you're seeing your product here, it's the same thing. It's employee owned, as you say.
10:30
Chuck Sharnagle
You can go out, you see the product, everybody's working towards it, but it has great, tremendous history as well.
10:38
Brad Sousa
That's awesome. I love that story. You talk about tech being a business enabler, and I am totally on board with that. How does tech help Revere Copper keep its promise, move the business forward? Are there one or two challenges that in the business today that you can talk about that you think it is particularly suited for helping out?
11:06
Chuck Sharnagle
Well, I think one of the challenges that I face is making copper is one of those businesses where you find yourself sometimes surviving despite everything. And the fact that you survived over 200 years is rather incredible. They've gone for sure, many more downs than ups. The good news is, over the last couple of years, the up has occurred more, and it is allowing them to grow and bring somebody like myself in to focus on it and expand the team. But they've used it in the past and technology in the past, where you go out and you'll have a copper line that 50 years ago, 100 years ago, there were no computers attached to it. Now there are computers attached to all of them, machines. They brought something in just this past year where it is analyzing the copper as it's rolling through, where it used to take a man or a woman to look at the copper, see it by their eyes, and determine, are we running?
12:14
Chuck Sharnagle
We should. And now the computer can analyze and make adjustments on the fly. So it's those types of things where you're improving the quality, you're improving the output, and that's happening all the time.
12:26
Brad Sousa
So it sounds like tech is deeply integrated in how you deliver product, how you speak with customers, how you communicate value. It's deeply integrated. To your point, it's not a boat that the tech team gets in and rows away from a corporate meeting, it's actually in the boat alongside others moving the business forward.
12:48
Chuck Sharnagle
Absolutely. And it's only going to be ingrained even more in the years to come as we get up the speed. As I would say with the rest of the back office applications certainly out in the plant, there are tremendous opportunities for AI and other technologies to take us to higher and higher levels as far as where we are at.
13:08
Brad Sousa
Yeah, yeah. So I want to talk about this idea of how tech impacts and changes the lives of people. Our vernacular around it at Avi is human impacts. Give me just a moment to kind of set up the premise here. So today we're the largest provider of technology solutions around video and collaboration in the world. And so the tech that we deal with is like UC cloud services or broadcast or streaming or signage and blah, blah, all that kind of stuff. What we end up actually delivering are things like an office that you don't have to mandate to go back. Actually the tech in the office actually endears people to come and to collaborate or solutions that enable people all over the planet to share ideas and move ideas forward, build a community together. And even though they've never met each other personally, they feel this trust and connection to each other.
14:15
Brad Sousa
So that's kind of the human side of what we do. Does this concept that it's more than just the spec, it's really how tech impacts people, does that resonate with you? What's your thoughts on that?
14:28
Chuck Sharnagle
Absolutely. And it's funny in your business. I've actually been using this type of telecommunication since Black and Decker.
14:37
Brad Sousa
Sure.
14:37
Chuck Sharnagle
Many of their plants all over the globe. They had set this up back in the save costs because as you can imagine when you're a global company, back then people were flying everywhere so they wanted to cut that down. So I got exposed to it in those days and it was a great collaboration tools tool and we used it all the time. But certainly if you fast forward today, it allows so much more to happen by being able to have just it on your laptop instead of a lot of expensive equipment in a dedicated room, which we had back in those days. It allows people to be on vacation, get away, but if you're needed they can still call in or they can plan a vacation around an important event because they can connect for a short period of time, still make an impact, they can still be out with their family.
15:31
Chuck Sharnagle
We want people to enjoy their vacations, obviously, but sometimes you're part of a project and the project's been going on for two years. You deserve a vacation, but still may need to be involved. So the impact is real. Obviously, went through this during COVID and having more people work from home. But on regular scale, this is allowing us to utilize people. Let me step back if I could. The bottom line is that we're located in Rome. That's the majority of where everything occurs. We just opened up a facility down in North Carolina. That's all well and good, but in the it Market. There aren't necessarily enough. It People located in Rome, New York. So by having this type of technology, I can now hire people in other parts of the country and have them work remotely and have them be very successful. So that's a huge impact if you have somebody that loves where they live but they want to work for a company like ours.
16:36
Chuck Sharnagle
Great. By having this type of technology, it allows it to happen more frequently.
16:42
Brad Sousa
Yeah, I love that. So early in my career. I spent a few years with the Navajo people and with the Hopi people. And my purpose of working in Four Corners that part of the southwest US. Was to bring Tech into these small, rural school districts. And it was there that I think for the first time, I saw how tech done right can absolutely change the lives of people. And I've carried those stories forward. This seems like you might have a story like that.
17:26
Chuck Sharnagle
No, you're absolutely right. Working at Mohegan, we saw it all the time where the tribal government would utilize technology and impact people all the time by providing different equipment to people that didn't have access to it. We saw with working with other tribes, as you mentioned, where they're not in places and they would be impacted when they got Wi-Fi access or computer access. It's almost like getting water. These days, everybody Wi-Fi___33. Everybody takes it for granted. But when you start dealing with people and they go, yeah, we don't have it here because we're in the middle of the desert, literally, and there's no cell towers around. When cell towers are built, that makes a big difference. So whether it's a computer or the signal that gets there, any type of technology makes huge impacts to everybody.
18:24
Brad Sousa
Yeah, that's so well said. So for an organization like Revere Copper that has the legacy that your organization has, how do you strike the balance between innovation, moving forward and honoring the legacy and the history of the organization?
18:44
Chuck Sharnagle
How do you do that? Well, I think again, it goes back to some of the things that I said earlier. What are we there for? Our job is to make copper and get copper out the door. And I've looked at my team over the last year and said many times, okay, what's the impact of what we're doing and how can we impact out there? My technology and myself walk through the plant and we try to be proactive. We see what people are doing. Okay, is There Something That We Can Suggest are there other tools, are there other applications, hardware, whatever, that we can suggest that may make an impact? And at the end of the day, we have to look at and say, oh, you know what, there is something that will make an impact there, but the expense doesn't make it worthwhile. So we'll keep an eye on it.
19:37
Chuck Sharnagle
If the price goes down, that's fine. If there is something that can make an impact, we bring it up to the other operational leaders and say, hey, have you thought about this? One of the things that I want to do next year is get to more manufacturing conferences so that my team can be exposed. What other things are out mean? One of the challenges with Revere is we're probably like a lot of other organizations, particularly in it guys. The people that I have, the guys and gals get into their habits, and you got to kind of kick them a little bit to get them to go look at something new, to bring in those vendors and kick the tires and see what else is out there. And they go, oh, they want to go on a conference, but they have a project. Well, you always have projects.
20:26
Chuck Sharnagle
There's always something going on. You've got to break away and go look and see what else the marketplace is offering. And then you come back and you have those discussions. And sometimes what looked really good at the conference doesn't look so good when you come back because of cost, because implementation times or those types of things. But at the end of the day, have the discussion about it. Let people know that there are other technologies, other solutions out there and they're available. How often do we hear from somebody, oh, this has been a pain for the last 18 months? Really? Well, if you had told us, I know something that can fix that. So you've got to find a way to be meeting in the middle, throwing up ideas and suggestions because there may be pain points that you're not aware of, and throwing up those ideas and suggestions because the people on the other side of the fence might be going, well, if I just had something that would do this, my life would be easier.
21:25
Chuck Sharnagle
So you've got to find ways to answer the questions without being asked, if that makes sense.
21:32
Brad Sousa
Yeah. So good. So I started my tech career in manufacturing and it was around fiber optic video systems. So I've been in this business for a while. I remember at that time our products were all made in the US. And my office was near the manufacturing facility for the products that we made. And I remember walking across the production floor and there was just rows and rows of people stuffing circuit boards and putting components and that kind of thing. So I stopped and I asked this one gal, I said, so what are you making? And she goes, I knew she was making one of my products.
22:17
Chuck Sharnagle
Sure.
22:18
Brad Sousa
And as a product manager, I was constantly fighting for space on the production line, right? So I asked her, So what are you doing here? And she goes, I don't know. I'm just making this. And she showed it to me, and I said, So that's one of mine. Do you know who the customer is? She goes have no idea. Well, here, let me just take your Traveler. So I took that and went back, looked it up and came back and said, so what you're making right now is the video transmission upgrade to the NASA command center in Houston. And she's like, Wait, what about that time I had four or five other people from the assembly line listening to the story? I never had a problem getting product made after that because every time I saw somebody working on something, I told them the purpose behind it, and it created this energy around the value of what we do.
23:14
Chuck Sharnagle
How do I say it? I'm in agreement to share more information because when I worked at the Black and Deckers and Fruit of Looms and you could see your product out in the store, if I was in Home Depot and somebody's looking at a no, that's not what you want, right? You want to buy the and you know why? Because I helped build those. Because I took a lot of pride in and people do take pride in. I mean, imagine how that person went home and know I'm making something that's going to be in NASA that's going to help put somebody on the right. Yeah, it's a small piece of it, but without all those small pieces, it doesn't happen. So I think that's one thing that sometimes on the business side, they forget that pride of what you do is important no matter what your job is, even it the person assembling, it the person cleaning the office, whatever.
24:11
Chuck Sharnagle
Everybody needs to be in that boat rowing together to get the finished product.
24:18
Brad Sousa
Yeah. So you and I, as It leaders, I mean, we're constantly we've got one hand on reality of today, and we've got our eyes looking over the horizon. How do you motivate your team to do the same? To imagine bigger, to imagine that this isn't just an initiative to migrate to some new cloud service or ERP platform, but it really has an impact to the people who are going to consume it? How do you do that?
24:50
Chuck Sharnagle
Yeah, that's a good question. You've got to be good at telling stories and getting people to buy in.
24:58
Brad Sousa
So true.
24:59
Chuck Sharnagle
You got to be able to paint that picture. And unfortunately, I'm not very creative, so I'm not always good at that. But it's much like when a CIO comes into an organization, like I did a year ago, I have a lot of people that have been in this organization revere is the type of place you don't leave. People stay there for 25 years. I can't tell you how many people retire from there or leave and come back to there, because it's just that type of business. So the two people reporting into me have been there 13 years and ten years. Thus they have a way that they do everything. So I come along, I replace their boss, who finally retires, and I say, okay, the executive team wants some different things going on. I need to make some changes. And they're looking and going, Wait, changes?
25:50
Chuck Sharnagle
No, we've done everything this way for a long time. Why are we changing? And over the last year, I kept looking at my head of technology saying, you've got to trust me. You've got to take that leap of faith and hold my hand. Come with me. I will take you down the steps, and I will protect you. It will be fine. And we're now a year into that cycle. We've had this discussion, literally this discussion, and I had this follow up just a few weeks ago. And you know, Peter, we're in a much different place today than you thought we would be. And I know you think differently. And he goes, you're right. I do. I see it now. I see what you were talking about. So you've got to be able to communicate. You've got to be able to paint that picture. You've got to be able to use examples and walk people through logically and show them how you're getting there, and show them as you're getting there, as you're making progress, point it out, hey, look at where we are today versus three months ago, six months ago.
26:52
Chuck Sharnagle
The dots are starting to fill the picture in, are they not? And they go, yeah, I feel a little bit better. And then three months later, they feel better. I think that answers your question. Yes.
27:04
Brad Sousa
Yeah, it does. And I agree with you. I think storytelling is so incredibly important. And teaching my reports, the people who report to me, the importance of imagining and telling a story about where we're going, because at the essence of leadership is the ability to take people someplace they can't go on their own. If they could, they wouldn't need you.
27:32
Chuck Sharnagle
Right?
27:33
Brad Sousa
And so helping people kind of imagine what that is and then create a plan or a pathway to find ourselves there.
27:40
Chuck Sharnagle
Well, you're right. When the CIO talks to the CEO, most of the time the CEO will say, I don't know technology that well, and they're very quick to point that out. So it is your job to fill in those blanks. Well, why do I need an ERP system? Why do I need this system? Well, it does these things, and it will give you these benefits. And you have to understand, if you don't spell that out, they're not going to buy into it. And it is funny part I'm an older guy, I've been around the block, and I kind of know how to communicate much better today than I did 20 years ago. And I try to tell my team, listen, the reason we have goals is because you want to be able to make a case for yourself at the end of the year. You want a bigger raise.
28:27
Chuck Sharnagle
Well, your manager needs to justify to me, what have you done?
28:32
Brad Sousa
Same thing.
28:32
Chuck Sharnagle
You want to go in and you want me to ask for a new system. You want us to get new technology, get funding. Well, I have to build the case. So if I go in there and say, well, my team wants this and that's the end of the story, the CEO is going to go, yeah, so I don't care.
28:50
Brad Sousa
Everybody wants something.
28:51
Chuck Sharnagle
Exactly. But if I can go in and say, I'd like you to consider funding this project, this is the cost, but here are the benefits. And I can walk through and I can tell that story, and I can paint the picture of how much better off we're going to be at the end of the day, not just a return on investment, but how the impact the team will be and the impact to the users will be. Then the CEO can sit back and go, oh, okay, I can see that. I understand. I've heard about those pain points. You're going to alleviate some of that. It's a reasonable cost. Here's the payback, then it makes sense. But you've got to walk people through. You just can't go in and say, I want this, and they're going to understand because they don't.
29:36
Brad Sousa
Yeah, for sure. I'm going to stay on topic, but I'm going to transition us just a little bit and I'm going to do my best not to put words in your mouth, but I think I've heard you say something like this. There's this thing called it neglect. It's where we don't do what we're supposed to do and we find ourselves I think your premise is that we find ourselves more upside down than right side up. And part of the reason we get there is because as an industry, we've trained It leaders to say no first. So talk about that a little bit. I'd love to hear more.
30:16
Chuck Sharnagle
Well, we had that problem at Revere where when I first came in, I sat with a lot of the users and I just said, what's working? What's not working? Well, they had their issues, and one of the things that they said was it always says no. The customer is always right. Well, the customer is not always right. In my mind, the customer has an idea of what they want, and sometimes we have to get them to the right place. And they may not understand why they're not right. As far as saying no, you can't say no, but there are ways to say no while you're not. Saying no thought and reason and walking them through the scenario. There are maybe a lot of pieces of information they're not aware of. So a big part of our job in It is to teach and train and explain.
31:12
Chuck Sharnagle
And I don't know that there's enough of that goes on. Again, there are a lot of It leaders out there that they can talk technology, but they can't talk the reasoning and the business behind it. And I think that's the piece that's lost. They'd rather come out and say, well, no, we're not doing that. That doesn't make any sense. But the user is left sitting there going, that's right. Why? It makes sense to me. And if the user isn't satisfied at the end of the day, we are a service portion of the business. That's right. If the users don't want to use us, that's a problem. And I've talked to and been in so many organizations where the CEO will say, my It department, they don't understand what anybody wants, so they just go outside and they bring in people to handle whatever Finance is asking for, or other departments.
32:08
Chuck Sharnagle
When you have the shadow It groups, how much money does that cost you at the end of the day?
32:13
Brad Sousa
That's right.
32:14
Chuck Sharnagle
And they know that, but they don't fix it. And just because somebody is really technical, I don't know that means that person should lead an It group and that you need to be able to have these other skills and understand what you're being asked. But more importantly, how to respond and what information should you give back. And yeah, the answer may be no, but it's often how you're saying those words.
32:40
Brad Sousa
Yeah. So I'm going to pull the thread on that a little bit because I find this really fascinating, this part of the conversation really engaging too. For so long in the It space, I think we've promoted people who had a very strong IQ because they had this unique skill set. It was tied to a unique technology or platform and they could excel faster than anybody else, whatever it was, whether it was code or hardware or whatever it was. Today, I think equal to the IQ is an EQ. There's an emotional quotient that goes along with it, because if they can't empathize with what the customer wants it to do, then they'll design something that meets the spec but is never consumed. True. And then I would say that there's maybe even a step beyond that today. That's more of an AQ and it's really around how adaptable are they because things change so fast.
33:43
Brad Sousa
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
33:44
Chuck Sharnagle
That's a lot right there. Yeah, because the adaptive is extremely important. I think that's one of the principal requirement of It people. You need to understand when you get involved in a project or a request that things change and you just have to accept it. And I learned that a long time ago, where, okay, we come in, we gather the requirements, and then you're three days in, three weeks in, whatever, and the customer comes back and said, we can't do it that way. You know what? We forgot we need this or the situation changed and people in It lose their mind. I've been coding for the last two weeks. Now you're asking me to change. Guess what? If the business changes, then the business changes, and you need to change with the business, and you've got to get it out of your head that I put this time in, so I've got to finish it.
34:36
Chuck Sharnagle
No, you don't. If the business says that's no longer important, you've got to do you know, Brad, I think part of it is that some people are good in different roles, and that's okay. I've got some guys working for me. They're incredible developers. And when I've talked to them about these types of problems that we're having with our user, know, one of mine have looked at me and said, chuck, I'm not a business analyst talking to the customer and gathering requirements. I'm not overly good at that. I'm good at writing code, and we have a lot of code writers. We don't have business analysts. And the user community continues to wonder, why are we not giving them what they're looking for? And it's because I have people that don't know how to pull that information. They don't know how to ask the right questions. So those little subtleties make a big difference.
35:35
Chuck Sharnagle
And to your ultimate point, I think in the role of the VP of It, the CIO, the director of It, if they can't have simple business conversations and understand the impact, then they're in a position they shouldn't be. And you're right. How many people are in those roles today because they are the most technically talented individual in that organization? But that may not be enough to be the manager of that organization, at least if I was the CEO, I don't want the geekiest It person in that role. I want someone that we can all communicate to and they can decipher what I'm asking for and then deliver it. And you really need those skills, those soft skills. I've argued from many years ago, I can take anybody and teach them how to code in the latest language. The harder part is getting them to be able to communicate with the customer and having the soft skills to be good.
36:41
Chuck Sharnagle
I've hired people in the help desk over the last 30 years, and those are the tough ones. You bring somebody in, they can answer a question, but they don't answer it in a good fashion, where the customer understands, where the customer appreciates it. They just say, oh, click this button and do this. You'll be fine. And they walk away, and the customer, what? And they're still sitting there, and they don't know. I'd rather have somebody that says, here's step one, here's step two, here's step three. Did it work for you? How else can I help you? Those other skills will buy you repeat business and get you further down the line. Plus, if you have those skills and you're in other roles within it pays off in many ways. If you're the project manager, if you're the business analyst, even if you're the developer, those soft skills set you apart, I think, in today's world.
37:38
Brad Sousa
Yeah, that's so good. I had this conversation not so long ago where it was with a customer, and it was kind of a classic. Brad, we need help with a return to the office strategy. I know we own a lot of the technologies that we need to develop to really encourage people to come back to the workplace, and then it centered around what we used before. The Pandemic doesn't work for us after the Pandemic. And this person had this title in the It stack with a bunch of acronyms after It, and has a very deep, long, hard worked for set of skills around a particular brand of technology. And after we talked several times on the topic, I stopped and I said, what we're facing is not an engineering problem. What we're facing is a career path problem. Because you can't imagine a world where the brand that you have spent so much time developing a skill set in is not the primary brand that you deliver your services with.
38:49
Brad Sousa
And if we can help you understand how to transition your skill set from a brand to a leadership and a design concept, you'll catch on fire. This problem will all of a sudden not be so big. And that's what happened. And he's crushing it and killing it, and it's because he struggled with adapting his mindset from, I'm used to this brand. I've spent years developing my skills in this brand, and now I have to do something else. Now he loves it, but it was a struggle.
39:24
Chuck Sharnagle
Well, I learned that a long time ago, too. I don't care what we buy anymore as far as who makes right. I used to, and that was 2030 years ago. But I look at my team now and go, oh, you like XYZ as a computer supplier. That's fine with me. I don't care. I want the best one that's going to be the cheapest. Support us the longest, last the longest, and check all these boxes. At that point, you can pick what you want. If this product can do what we're looking for, that's great. If it can't get rid of it. I'm not tied to any product. I'm not tied to any vendor. I'm not tied to any partner. Partners are extremely important. That is one that I'll probably be more tied to than anything else.
40:12
Brad Sousa
Yeah, for sure.
40:13
Chuck Sharnagle
But the hardware, what do I care? There's no value there anymore. A computer is a computer, and the difference between this one and that one is miniscule compared to the services that I need to provide. That's a tough lesson for some people. Some people are really tied to it.
40:33
Brad Sousa
Yeah. I'd like to ask you a personal question, and it's really around this thing I think I've seen as I connect with CIOs around the planet and CTOs. And what I think I've discovered is it's hard for us to build a community of people who are like minded and challenge one another to level up, think bigger, find new ways to innovate. I know that I belong to a number of associations and groups, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about building a circle of people that kind of help move me forward. Have you figured out how to solve that problem? How do you find motivation for you to keep thinking big?
41:19
Chuck Sharnagle
And that's a good question. Yeah, I haven't found that in any of the groups either. It's the challenge for me, I guess how I do it is I always want to do better. I always want to find a way to improve the business. And that's really what I look at when we sit and we look at our goals and you say, Gee, I want to roll this out, and I want to roll that out. What's really the impact of the business? I get excited where we make a half a million pounds of copper a day. It's a lot of copper.
41:52
Brad Sousa
It really is that's a little bit, yeah.
41:54
Chuck Sharnagle
So I look at it and say, okay, if I can find a technology that will reduce our cost by a penny per pound, that'll add up, and that'll add up big time, or a 10th of a cent per pound, it doesn't matter. You can pick anything you want. But that's how I tend to look at things, and that's how I try to challenge myself and I try to bring this up with my team on a fairly regular basis. What are we doing to impact the business? How are we trying to find ways to do just that? So a lot of it is really self reflection and introspection to continue doing it. That's a really interesting comment, because I do belong to some groups, too, and some groups are just all about being in the group and they expose you to some new technologies and things like that.
42:45
Chuck Sharnagle
But that's a really good question, and that's not one where we ponder those types of questions. I have other groups where it's connecting with other people in other professions and those types of things. But yeah, we really don't talk about that. So it's more just me trying to say, okay, how am I making an impact?
43:08
Brad Sousa
Yeah, for sure. I love that. And the bigger groups are I mean, there's purpose behind it. I belong to them, they've got value to me, they're good. But having a smaller circle of It leaders that challenge me to think bigger, are not afraid to say what's going on in your head, Brad. Those kinds of things are so important, and it's one of the motivations, quite honestly, for this podcast to try and help build a sense of community and people to connect with each other. Chuck, I've loved this conversation. You probably don't recognize that we're almost out of time. It's been a great conversation with you. I'd like to ask you a question for those who are listening that might aspire to be a CIO one day, or maybe they're a manager and they want to become a VP. What's a good piece of advice that a mentor gave you that you pass on to others for those who imagine themselves as a leader, not just a doer?
44:19
Chuck Sharnagle
That's another really good question. I think there's a couple of answers to that. One of the things is recognize talent and grow talent. We had somebody apply for a position on the help desk one time, and my help desk manager brought me the resume, and she had talked to him, and I looked at the resume, had absolutely no experience, had graduated from college, was basically looking for their first job in it. So it was one of those, how am I going to get experience if nobody will give it to me? But they had worked at the airport, and this was many years ago when they had the people outside the airport grab your luggage. They're doing it again these days. But it was a long time ago, and he had it all written up, what he did, and he said, I deliver superior customer service.
45:12
Chuck Sharnagle
And that caught my eye in the resume. And I said, if you like them, hire them, because that's what I'm looking for. And my point is that when you talk to your people or you're looking at new people, there are keywords that set them apart. There are things and things that they'll say, where you go, that person gets it. Grow that talent. Give people an opportunity. It's so gratifying to see people grow through their careers, and as a leader, that's what you should be there for. I'm in the corner office. I'm appreciative that. I'm in the corner office. I've worked hard to get to the corner office, but I'm not going to be there forever, so it's my job to get people ready for it, and I'm fine with that. One day I'm going to get to retire and sit back, or I'm going to go someplace else.
46:02
Chuck Sharnagle
But I want to have people that have grown while I'm there and have learned solid traits that will get them prepared for that spot. And I think that's one of the biggest things that we should do and we should keep in mind as we deal with our talent, hey, what can I do to help them today? Be even better and not worry about them taking your job if you're doing well. If your team's doing well, everything will fall in line the way that it should. And the real question is, how did you improve the lives of the people that work for you and help you?
46:38
Brad Sousa
Yeah. Well, that's the drop the mic moment for us today. I love the conversation. Chuck, I really respect what you've shared and honor you and the time. Thank you for being so gracious with your time with us. And I just want to say thank you one more time for joining us on impact.
46:58
Chuck Sharnagle
Well, thank you, Brad. I appreciate it. I thought you had some great questions. You definitely keep me on my toes, but it was all very enjoyable. I love the discussion question.
