Eyes On Impact: Digital Transformation Starts with People | AVI Systems

00:01 
Craig Gudorf 
As we bring the first season of Eyes On Impact to a close, we do so with heavy hearts. Brad Sousa, chief technology officer at AVI Systems and host of this podcast, died suddenly and unexpectedly in early November 2023. With blessings from the Sousa family, we share as a tribute to Brad the last two episodes he recorded. Thanks for listening. 
 
00:30 
Brad Sousa 
I don't know if you realize it or not, but most of the work that you and I do has a direct global impact. To me, it doesn't matter if we're talking about Paris, France, or Paris, Texas. Much of what we do is about connecting people all over the planet. And that's why I'm excited to have with us today Sean Sadler from CGI in the UK. On this episode of Eyes on Impact, Sean and I challenge the idea of what true digital transformation is and how if technology is going to transform our organizations, we have to consider people first. We jump first into the state of generative AI. And hear me on this, I have tech leaders all the time say things like, you know, Brad, AI is the disruption that's changed everything that we just changed.  
 
01:16 
Brad Sousa 
We'll talk about what Microsoft is planning with AI and then ask ourselves, is the disruption that AI brings on the same scale and order of magnitude of the disruption that the Pandemic just brought? We'll also be honest with ourselves about the role of tech leadership as it relates to sustainability and climate change. We'll even dig a little bit deeper into the different priorities of sustainability in the U.S. And the priorities of sustainability across the pond. But before we get all fired up about this conversation, I want to just take a moment and say thank you to our friends at LG who have been a great global partner of AVI’s for a long time. Thanks, LG, for sponsoring today's episode of Eyes on Impact. So what do you say? You fired up for this? All right, man, let's get after it.  
 
02:09 
Brad Sousa 
Well, Sean, it's great to have you here with us. I'm excited about our conversation today. First, I just want to say thank you for giving us your time. You're an interesting fellow. The things I've read and speeches I've heard you give or keynotes and so forth, I'm looking forward to our conversation today. Help us get started by maybe talking a little bit about CGI, what CGI does, your role at CGI.  
 
02:36 
Sean Sadler 
Yeah. Well, good afternoon, Brad. It's good to meet you. Yeah, and I'm very excited as well. It's a great opportunity to talk and share information and collaborate. So CGI is a global IT services company, it's been going now, I'm going to get shot now, but it's been going since about 1976, I believe, actually, is when it's first incorporated. And as I say, it's global. Over 90,000 employees now. And in the U.K., I head up the Microsoft advisory practice for CGI. And that really entails advising clients on how they can migrate to the cloud once they're in the cloud, how they can optimize their spend. But also we get asked to come in and help them with how they can become more productive, more efficient, and also where they have maybe gone by themselves previously or used another supplier.  
 
03:41 
Sean Sadler 
Their environment isn't great at this present time. That's where we come in and really sort of turn things around for them. And then the other side of it is the three six five practice. So that's looking at obviously all the elements of three six five environment, power, platform, and then of course the thing that's come to the fore right now, unless you've been hiding somewhere, you'd have heard of it as Copilot. So, very exciting time.  
 
04:06 
Brad Sousa 
Yeah, that is exciting. So we have a very strong Microsoft practice as well here in the U.S. MRPP Partner. O365, with an emphasis on teams and collaboration, but also App Dev and Azure and all that kind of good stuff. So I'm excited about having that conversation with you and the things that you're learning. Like you, I'm excited about Copilot and what that means for us and what that mostly means for our customers. You've got a pretty diverse background. You've been in the public sector, the private sector, I think. Have there been some experiences, maybe a place you've worked or somebody you've worked with that has really shaped the way you think about your role as a tech leader?  
 
04:55 
Sean Sadler 
That's a really good question, Brad. I think I've been very fortunate actually in my career that I've had several mentors, really when I have been a bit stuck about what my future career direction looks like and how best to achieve it, that's when I've really looked up to people. That’s where I value their opinion. They've obviously got to where they are because they're not just intelligent, but they're very good from a business perspective. But also I think communication skills is obviously something that's really, you know, that when I was back at Convergent Systems, there's a guy called Rufus, he was like the CTO and he gave me some really good advice about as we've probably all heard about networking. It's really about trying to come out of that IT silo and a number of years ago anyway.  
 
05:57 
Sean Sadler 
But I think it's fair to say there's been a stereotype around it and that we very much work in our silos and it's business and it's IT. And how do you make sure actually that business sees it as very much one and the same a real enabler for the business can do?  
 
06:15 
Brad Sousa 
Yeah, so that's so important. And today, as I talk with CIOs and CTOs and IT leaders, I think one of the big challenges is that many in our space still believe that it is more of a utility, it's something I have to do to take care of workers. And they themselves don't think that they really have a stake in the outcome of the business or the success of IT. How do you communicate the idea that IT is not like plumbing or HVAC, it's actually going to make or break your ability to accomplish your organizational goals?  
 
06:59 
Sean Sadler 
Yeah, I mean, as we all know, IT is such an important aspect now of business and it is an important aspect of an enabler of the business. And without IT, businesses just can't function. And I think that really came to the fore to COVID when suddenly IT stock really increased because they suddenly had to provide that remote capability for people to be able to collaborate as they did, but obviously in a different world and very quickly. And I think they had a lot of brownie points. I think the challenge has then been, how do you build upon that? How do you continue to demonstrate that it provides real value to a business, to an organization? And I think as technology evolves and the use cases for that evolve and this is where it's really understanding the business, isn't it?  
 
07:56 
Sean Sadler 
Ultimately, obviously, AI is the topic of conversation for today, especially generative AI, but it's much like the same as all technologies in the fact that the answer is this technology now, what's the question? It's really what business problem are you trying to you know, when IT leaders are able to marry that up with the technology and make sure that it delivers what the business needs, that's when they have the greatest success.  
 
08:28 
Brad Sousa 
Yeah. So Sean I love that. I was out to dinner a while ago with a friend who also is a customer. She's the CIO of a large organization, and her husband and I were all out to the at one point in the meal, she just kind of starts chuckling a little bit to herself and I'm like, okay, what's up? She said you know, Brad, I don't want to offend, you, the video collaboration media part of the tech space that you're in. Pre Pandemic, it wasn't even on my radar. Somebody took care of that. I didn't even think about it. But post pandemic, it is integrated into three of my top five deliverables to my CEO.  
 
09:18 
Brad Sousa 
So if we don't succeed at collaboration, if we don't succeed at helping the workforce reengage back at the office, if we don't succeed and she had this list, I can't deliver on it became critical to their organization's operations. You obviously believe that. What are two or three critical issues that CEOs have to solve that it can actually accelerate?  

09:56 
Sean Sadler 
I think ultimately it hasn't really changed for a business in what they're looking to do things quicker, looking to do things more cost effectively. And they're looking to have that unique selling point, aren't they? That USB. So those, I think, are the three things that CEO is always looking to enhance. And really with technology you can achieve all three things when implemented in the right way. When you understand, as we talked about, what are the business challenges, what are the business goals, where do you actually want to get to as organization? Then you can position the technology accordingly to optimize your operations. So obviously, today you now have lots of chat, bots, virtual agents and all the rest of it, which can be 24/7. So you're not having to rely on being able to earn any range during a certain amount of time.  
 
10:59 
Sean Sadler 
But also you've got things such RPA, haven't you? So you can take manual, repetitive tasks out of the equation and actually they can be churned out as and when those tasks arise. And you're really optimizing the headcount you require for that. But at the same time, we talked about how you can actually repurpose those people within the team so that they can do more creative work and that's actually going to provide more value for the company.  
 
11:37 
Brad Sousa 
I love that. So I want to dig a little deeper in this idea of digital transformation. And I'm going to read something that I attribute to you. Now, I may be paraphrasing this, so forgive me if I am. The statement is: “If digital transformation is going to be effective, then you have to consider the people that are involved.” And this was a statement that I heard you make, and I think the context of it was that if you're actually going to be transformative to the organization, it's going to start with transforming people, not just the tech itself, have I got that right?  
 
12:13 
Sean Sadler 
Yeah, absolutely.  

12:14 
Brad Sousa 
Talk about that a little bit. I'd love to hear more about that.  

12:16 
Sean Sadler 
Well, again, it comes down to technology. Isn't technology as the enabler, but technology about the people to adopt it, to be able to adapt their working behaviors, to be able to get the best out of it. It's just a technology, isn't it? And so, yeah, to your point, any successful digital transformation, certainly any sustainable digital transformation, relies upon ensuring that your people are very much part of that process and very much on the bus, so to speak. And that's where business change comes in, is making sure that obviously that they understand the rationale. Why are they doing this? Because of course, AI as we know, is going to change our workforce undeniably, possibly beyond recognition. But some people's view on it is a real positive because it's going to make their lives a lot more effectively efficient.  
 
13:22 
Sean Sadler 
So some of the mundane tasks that they do today are going to be made that much more efficient. And obviously, that's one of the things that Copilot is promising to do. Whereas other people will think, well, I don't necessarily have good digital literacy skills per se, and what I do today could be automated, AI could take over my job. So it's really how do you ensure that both elements of the workforce or even subsets of those feel secure in what their role is going to be. So any technological change addresses that. And actually, something that I learned long time ago, I had the fortune to go on this executive management course was talking about change with people, and analogy was the change house. I don't know if you've heard of that at Brad previously. Yeah, it starts off everything's fine around here.  

14:27 
Sean Sadler 
The unconscious incompetence knows there's no need to change. It becomes denial. Well, I don't see why we need to do this because everything's working just fine.  

14:36 
Brad Sousa 
Right.  

14:37 
Sean Sadler 
And then obviously it's having to accept, well, yeah, if we carry on the way we are, things aren't going to continue to be fine because businesses, unless they continue to adapt and change, will go out of business ultimately.  

14:53 
Brad Sousa 
Yeah, I love that. So we hear people say that people don't like change, and I don't know that I agree with that. I think people like the other side of change. I don't think they like the process of change.  

15:08 
Sean Sadler 
Yeah, I agree.  

15:09 
Brad Sousa 
Right. How do you paint a picture, tell a story about the other side of change? Or what do you do for your customers so that they embrace the process of change because they want to get to the other side of change?  

15:31 
Sean Sadler 
Yeah, I mean, it's a good question. So some of the assistance that we provide our clients is that very aspect. So it may be that they've implemented and we talk about people being the most important aspect of it is because they may well come to us and say, we have implemented some changes, we have moved to the cloud, we now have some of our critical systems up there. But yet capability of the team is not where it needs to be, and they're not very forward looking. And actually there seems to be a lot of reluctance and reticence to actually get on board and see this as a real positive for them. So that's where we come in and actually really try and understand. And everyone's very different, aren't they?  

16:28 
Sean Sadler 
But it's really try to understand where they're at today, why they feel the way they do and really try and position. And some of it is because you talked about the process of change and fact that I think people, when you've been in an infrastructure role for a number of years, you've got comfortable with that. You know what's best of you. And if something is upgraded, then it's just something to learn on top of what you already do. But when it's complete change as they see it, suddenly they're out of their comfort zone. And nobody likes to look stupid at the end of the day or feel stupid. And I think that on the whole is sort of perception that we get back. So it's really trying to reposition it, reframe it, if you like, so that this is a great opportunity.  
 
17:20 
Sean Sadler 
This is where the industry is going and this is where you can continue to enhance your skills and keep current. So it's really trying to change their mindset in that respect instead.  
 
17:35 
Brad Sousa 
Yeah, that's really good. So I was speaking at an executive summit, sharing at a summit recently, and the topic of AI was a hot topic everybody, of course wanted to talk about and a group of executives and leaders that was there. Their response to me was, well, hang on, Brad, AI is the disruption that will change everything that we just changed. The context of the conversation, which I thought was brilliant, was we just went through this pandemic and everything changed and AI is threatening to change everything yet again. The sentiment was that I'm not sure that we have the tolerance to change like that again. What do you think? I mean, is AI the disruption, like on the order or the magnitude of the pandemic? What's your thought?  

18:44 
Sean Sadler 
Well, I think there's two answers to my question. One is that as you're aware as well, AI is not new. That's right, yeah. AI has been around for a number of years, of course. I think it's just now that obviously with large language models and generative AI suddenly become much more useful than it was. It was useful in certain cases, like narrow cases, but obviously now it can be applied across a whole load of use cases. So we've had conversation on AI for a while, but of course now we're going to another level. So I don't see it as something totally new, but of course it is an enhancement on what has gone before. But to answer your question about is it a disruptor? Absolutely it is.  

19:46 
Sean Sadler 
But there have been many disruptors before and as I said previously, if a business does not continue to change and adapt and embrace new technologies that come along that are going to help it to keep level with its competitors, let alone actually maintain its USP, then they will fall by the wayside. So I don't think case of not having I don't think there's a choice, is there, involved here? It's a case of do this or not have such a healthy business.  

20:28 
Brad Sousa 
I think of impact in our language, we talk about it as human impact technologies that impact people in such a way that it actually changes the trajectory of their life or of their organization. Where's the early big impact for generative AI? Is it around tech, is it around jobs? Is it around ethics, techno ethics? Where's the big impact you think that everybody's so concerned about?  

21:09 
Sean Sadler 
Well, I think ethics is definitely something that they're concerned about, for sure. I think when Chat GPT version three came out on 3.5, the fact that it was answering questions, giving you answers and not saying, I don't really know the answer to that question, it would give you answer which wouldn't necessarily be correct, but it was the best answer that they had available. So therefore, it gave it to you. And I think that's the concern that it's not trying to put in those safeguards and obviously this has been recognized by our government and Rishi Sunak who want to have this AI summit for ethics. And also Joe Biden, I just saw this morning, I believe that he had decreed some AI guidelines that need to be followed as well. So I think everyone's concerned about it and I think it's like anything, isn't it?  
 
22:10 
Sean Sadler 
Something that's quite powerful, it's making sure that it can't be used for ulterior motives.  

22:19 
Brad Sousa 
I'd like to dig in this just a little bit deeper, if you don't mind.  

22:22 
Sean Sadler 
Sure.  
 
22:23 
Brad Sousa 
The topic is really around AI and Oi, so it's artificial intelligence and organic intelligence and there's a lot of concern around the techno ethics related to AI. And by the way, I totally get it. I have very deep concerns around the ethics regarding the AI, but as I'm seeing AI generative, AI in particular, Chat GPT as an example, being integrated into work life more aggressively. I began to ask myself the question, will the ethics question begin to get solved? Because good people, organic intelligence, good people are going to write the guidelines and decide the way that AI is applied. Bad people will also make decisions and the outcome will be bad, but good people will make decisions and the outcome will be good. Do you have a perspective on that?  

23:32 
Sean Sadler 
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I share your thoughts on that. So, as we know as well, I think the other thing that AI has suffered from today is this unconscious bias, right? So things such as facial recognition, a lot of the data, the images that have been provided previously were of white males, white females as well, and there wasn't quite so much cross section, was there, between black and Asian people? So the facial recognition wasn't quite good, but that's just an example. But there's also been some sexual biases as well previously. I think the great thing is that's been recognized and that is being addressed, but it's just making sure that we talk a lot about diversity, equity, inclusion today and it's trying to ensure that we encapsulate that within the AI ethics and guidelines going forwards.  

24:38 
Sean Sadler 
And I have every confidence that will be the case. I think the other thing is that this is very much a topic that Microsoft has a great deal of interest in and they're pained to point out that they are following responsible AI practices. So they're guidelines by using OpenAI's LLM within their products that actually it can't be used for anything that's not for good purposes, as you talked about here. So there's some good safeguards being put in place there and that will continue with most legitimate companies. You will obviously always have and you're going to have this in every whatever technology you use look to circumvent those, create their own versions of AI that don't have those controls or guidelines in place. And I guess those are the elements I'd be concerned about.  

25:45 
Brad Sousa 
Get it? So what should our expectations really be about the impact of AI in our businesses? Is it really around optimization or should our expectations be more than that?  

26:08 
Sean Sadler 
Well, I think it's going to fundamentally change organizations, isn't it, ultimately? I mean, if you look at Amazon just recently, they've now started to get this is where Terminator, they've now started to deploy test robots, haven't they? In some of their warehouses that can actually have limbs, can walk to pick up items that again would be very manual, I think picking up empty cars, et cetera, that is not so interesting as well, pieces of work. But that is an example of where AI is going to continue to evolve and change the workplace. And actually how I see it is that AI is going to work in tandem with human beings. So you'll have the human AI experience which should be complementing each other.  

27:09 
Sean Sadler 
And I think it's also worth pointing out that the way we're looking at things today, and it's completely understandable, is that AI is going to create a lot of efficiencies. AI is potentially going to take people's jobs, but also, like other technologies, there'll be other jobs created.  

27:31 
Brad Sousa 
Yeah, absolutely. There's an interesting statistic is that of those college students, university students that graduated sometime around the Pandemic, the expectancy is that they'll have between eight and ten jobs, different career paths, different career jobs before they get to 40. Age 41 statistic I heard was that or it's actually been repeated several times now is that more than two thirds of those jobs haven't even been created yet. And so one of the challenges for us as an organization with our customers is that we're dealing with IT leaders. I'll just focus in the area of collaboration. As an example, a lot of our customers have a set of acronyms after their name which associates their experience with certain brands of technologies.  

28:40 
Brad Sousa 
And the challenge for them is that their identity is so closely tied to a brand that they can't imagine an effective role for them without being tied to that specific brand. But maybe that brand's lost its relevance for a season of time. And so now they're in a quandary, and we find ourselves talking with them about imagining their role, but not necessarily tied to a specific brand or a specific technology, but tied to how they lead or tied to how they see technology used or applied, but not necessarily around a specific subset of technologies that they've invested a career in developing skills around. Are you seeing the same kind of thing? And if so, how do you help people kind of imagine maybe a different, better role?  

29:45 
Sean Sadler 
So I'm not seeing any of that myself specifically Brad, but we do work slightly different environments, I guess, in that respect. But certainly it became evident to me a number of years ago that you can't rest on your laurels. You can't just assume that because you've got to a certain position and you've attained a certain amount of knowledge that can then just put your feet up and relax, you continue to be employed because you won't. You've got to remain current. And that also means that you've got to come outside of your work environment and look at what's going on in the rest of the world and then really try and imagine things forward, look into the future and think what are people going to be looking to focus on in the future.  

30:51 
Sean Sadler 
And also that comes down to though, doing your research, reading from various channels, or listening to podcasts such as this so that you can keep abreast of what's going on, you can get some ideas and then obviously you can then look to dedicate some time to Upskilling. Learning something new potentially.  
 
31:15 
Brad Sousa 
Right. And I think that's part of our role with our customers is to help them imagine a different way. And it wasn't so long ago that everybody's voice architecture as an example was on Prem and now it's almost exclusively in the cloud with the exception of some applications. And just the ability to reimagine that transformation was hard for some to make. And so, I don't know, I guess for us, part of what we find ourselves doing is helping people imagine their role on the other side of change. And as a result of that, they're more willing to go through the process of change. You talk about this bigger look beyond just your perspective of the world, look bigger. And that brings in maybe the topic of sustainability and climate change, which I think is something that you're pretty passionate about.  

32:14 
Sean Sadler 
Absolutely, yeah.  

32:16 
Brad Sousa 
Do you believe that IT leaders have a unique ability to help organizations accelerate towards carbon neutrality or make a difference with sustainability?  

32:29 
Sean Sadler 
I do, undoubtedly, and for a number of reasons, really. One is education, educating organizations in the measures that they can take. And that comes, again, that involves really coming out of your silo of what it is you're expected to do as an IT leader and actually thinking more about being a business leader. But I think also it's acknowledging the fact that IT technology, even more so now with AI as well, is increasingly at the heart of businesses, how IT's being used. They're becoming increasingly reliant on IT. Data centers are continuing to grow. The footprint, the carbon footprint of technology is continuing to grow. Apparently, it's now taken over the airline industry in terms of its global carbon footprint.  

33:32 
Sean Sadler 
And it's quite frightening really, when you think about we are all under pressure, all the countries, and I would say individuals as well, to try and reduce our carbon footprint. How can we try to ensure that we leave a world behind us that is at least as good as it is now, if not better, as opposed to something that what we're seeing with weather extremes that is potentially going to get worse. So we definitely need to act now and I think with IT technology leaders, they have the wherewithal to do that. We know that we can reduce our carbon footprint for organizations with that education, measuring, monitoring, et cetera. And it's something that as a passion I share with a number of other IT leaders as well.  

34:27 
Sean Sadler 
There's a specific group that we get together from time to time and we share best practice and ideas and I think it's something that we should continue to really socialize and make sure that everybody, all IT leaders are aware of how they can play their part.  

34:49 
Brad Sousa 
I love that. So you're in the U.K., I'm in the U.S. I sit on the board of a global tech association. Our organization does business in more than 60 countries. There's a vast difference in how people view sustainability, at least my experience is. I'm curious if it's your experience region by region, Europe has a very different view than the U.S. has, which has a different view than Latin America or and I guess my question to you is first, do you also see that there's differing priorities and expectations on sustainability depending upon where you are in the world? And if you do, how do you help people develop a common vision around carbon neutrality or sustainability?  

35:56 
Sean Sadler 
Yeah, I mean it's a good question and I guess if you look at the UN's definition of sustainability as well, I think there's 17 goals that they define and obviously climate change is one of those. But they are all very much interlinked, aren't they? We know that ice caps are melting. We know that actually fresh water, it will be a premium in the years to come. We know that's happening in faraway countries from us anyway. In the U.K., you know, certainly in the likes of Africa, droughts are becoming more and more common and it is something that I think the U.K. has become more aware of, the U.S. has become more aware of. I think we are taking this more seriously because I guess we have that knowledge about what we can do to improve things and turn things around.  

36:58 
Sean Sadler 
I think it's also though, that if you look at Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs on the whole, we are having our basic needs fulfilled and we're able to think about something other than how do we feed ourselves. Where I guess in some of the other poorer countries, they don't have that luxury. And for them, it's all about do whatever it takes just so they can get by every day. And obviously the war in Ukraine et cetera hasn't helped with that.  

37:32 
Brad Sousa 
Right. I was talking with Atti Riazi who is the CIO of Hearst Corporation. She was actually on a previous episode of this podcast and she shared the perspective with me that she was in China and was visiting I think she was working for the UN at the time and was visiting this electronics recycling, and she saw a family, so parents, children, manually disassembling circuit boards, pulling components off. And she said that in that moment she realized that that’s her stuff and that the mercury and lead and other hard metals -- that was transferring into the bodies of those people and those kids. That was a moment of inflection for her that fueled a desire to create change. How do you communicate?  

38:44 
Brad Sousa 
How do you get people on board, CIOs in particular, tech leaders in particular, because most want to do something, but I'm finding that few have the latitude to actually do it. How do you communicate that moment of inflection that says, let's stop talking and start doing?  

39:07 
Sean Sadler 
Yeah, I mean, it's a really good point, Brad. And obviously to hear that story, I think it really brings it home to you, doesn't it? And I think ultimately people are different and they will react in different ways, of course, and some of them may need a story such as that in order for it to hit home. And others, unless it hits them right between the eyes, going to sort of take notes. But the way I see this and the way I guess I sell the benefits of IT leaders really taking this seriously is that ultimately, if you can take measures to reduce your carbon footprint, you are also predominantly, I'd say, saving costs.  

40:02 
Sean Sadler 
Because, for example, it may be that you're moving your stuff to the cloud, for instance, and you are implementing scripts or routines or maybe dynamic scaling so that you only use the resources available when you require them and they're not just being continued to be consumed just in case. And that's, again, obviously one of the benefits of the cloud be the same in a data center. We talked about things such as cooling and data centers, and actually a lot of those costs don't necessarily come to the IT leader, but it's really making sure that they can have full visibility of everything that they do today that is responsible for the services they're providing and having that full visibility.  

40:58 
Sean Sadler 
And I think that's another part of it, really, is having that full visibility and transparency of what the costs are today and then saying, well actually, do you know what? We can save costs on cooling because we don't need to cool it within an nth degree of these recommended settings and actually don't need to keep replacing our hardware every three years because actually it can last longer than that. Because when you look at carbon footprint phones, et cetera, I think 90% of the carbon footprint of a phone is when it's actually made, when it's first manufactured. So if you can elongate that, you're then continuing to save money for the organization and doing your bit for saving the planet.  

41:40 
Brad Sousa 
Yeah, and I love that because here in the U.S., our story has really been around responsible sustainability. It's really around a circular economy and reuse and repurpose. When it makes business sense, then there's plenty of stakeholders and then it becomes part of your DNA and your culture. So I totally agree with you, really appreciate that perspective on it. So I'm going to get ready to...  
 
42:12 
Sean Sadler 
I'm sorry, brother, just going to say, I did a presentation at one of the events, an IT leaders charity event and that for me was how can IT leaders become superheroes? That for me is those measures as you talked about, circular economy, the reuse, the recycle, et cetera, so that they can save the organization's money, especially when money is very tight, but also feel that they are making a difference.  

42:47 
Brad Sousa 
Yeah, exactly. So I'm going to land the plane here with us. We were talking earlier around Microsoft and Microsoft AI and Copilot in particular, but is there anything particular in the Microsoft ecosystem that you're particularly excited about?  

43:13 
Sean Sadler 
Well, we're playing around with Copilot at this present time, actually. And it is exciting to see because as you're probably aware, Brad, they put Copilot in with all their products across, the whole product range across. And actually the event that I went to Microsoft Cloud Partner program event is now renamed to Microsoft AI Cloud Partner. But yeah, that for me is exciting. Seeing what we can do with Copilot, how is that going to help organizations to be more efficient and effective, but also to do so responsibly? Responsibly have that governance in place. And that's really building upon, say, the power platform, where you've got the low code, you've got your citizens, developers. It's making sure that an organization gives its staff, its employees, the ability to use the tools. But do so.  

44:16 
Sean Sadler 
In a responsible way and having some sort of level of governance so that your data is still going to stay within the remains of confines of that organization. And you've got your appropriate data classification, sensitivity controls applied as well.  

44:34 
Brad Sousa 
Super. Sean, I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation.  
 
44:39 
Sean Sadler 
Me too.  

44:40 
Brad Sousa 
Thank you for giving us some of your time. I've appreciated it, my friend. Any final thoughts before we say goodbye?  

44:46 
Sean Sadler 
Well, no, I think ultimately I've also very much enjoyed our conversation and I hope that it's been of use to people that listen to it.